A subscriber to our mailing lists on http://www.athiel.com has questions regarding the use of Vitamin C from Health Food Stores and the use of Bioflavenoids. Since Vitamin C is so effective in curing bacterial infections and fortifying fish, this question merits to be looked at indeed.
Any thoughts on using Vit C from the health food store? It is available in a "very pure form" with Rose Hips. Available in liquid/tab. How would I use it, with what kind of prophylactic dosing.
I am asking this because as an MD I know that one or two manufacturers make the overwhelming majority of Vit C produced in this country. Probably even the Vit C that is put in your product.
Only the labels and prices are changed (to protect the innocent). For example, I have seen the same Vit C tabs sell for one price under the generic brand, and 3-4X when it is a brand name (same manufacturer).
Thanks,
Dave
Dave :
The buffering of the C for human consumption is geared towards the pH of the human stomach which, as an MD, you know is very low due to the hydrochloric acid present there. (correction: I had listed phosphoric here but it is hydrochloric. Went too in writing this and listed the wrong acid and it was pointed out to me so I corrected it).
In aquariums we are dealing with a totally different set of circumstances and the buffering is totally different as well. (pH of around 2+ vs pH of 8+). This obviously creates a different set of chemical reactions which have to be taken into account. Hence the Aquarium Vitamin C recommendation. Note that even if you use that one you still will need to monitor you dKH and pH although to a lesser degree.
So, yes, in terms of the ascorbic acid itself there is no difference and yes, only few companies actually make it. As you indicate most of it is just repackaged by relabeled. Often too, as you indicate there is little difference between the brand and no-brand names. Problem is they are all still made for human consumption.
Where the difference is, and I think that is important and hope you do not mind that I copy the list in this message so they get this information too, is in the manner that the end product is buffered (in the interim I have created this HTML document).
Vitamin C for human consumption usually has calcium carbonate as the buffer whereas the one for aquarium use is buffered differently. Forgive me for skipping over how it is buffered as we are dealing with a commercial product and I cannot give the formula away of someone else's product (TAD Reef Ent. TX). As you may or may not know, I sold TAT a few months ago to that company and the formulas are now their property.
Suffice it to say that it is not buffered in the manner that C for human consumption is. The buffering is adjusted and is adapted to what is needed in saltwater tanks.
Your point on bioflavenoids is an interesting one. I have not been able to come to a definitive conclusion as to which one is the better variety to use, although rose hips and acerola are both certainly worth using and have proven to be beneficial based on what I have experienced. I have tested both and prefer the one with the bioflavenoids. The TAT formula contains them.
To answer the question directly: can you use ascorbic acid? Yes you can but you better be real careful, or you will soon find that you will experience a serious acid fall in the tank and a total skewing of the buffer and a greatly reduced alkalinity.
The acid fall may not occur immediately but, as you continue to add C, it will eventually deplete the buffer and you will find that the pH drops and that the drop can be significant. Should this deter you from using Vitamin C? Of course not. The benefits greatly outweigh this. All you need to do is use the Aquarium variety and check you pH and dKH regularly after each addition and adjust it by the use of complete buffers when necessary.
I will leave the final judgement up to you and defer to you MD knowledge but submit that in this case one needs to be careful as corals and fish do not react in the manner we do, and in addition to that I submit that you need to take the two totally different buffering and pH systems into account.
This is, actually, explained in the document on Vitamin C on our web site http://www.athiel.com not in this kind of detail but the general idea of what I just described is there.
My personal feeling is that it is better to use the aquarium brand. I have tested pure Ascorbic acid from Willner Pharmacy in NYC and have found that even though the purity is real high, large amounts of buffering make it rather impractical to use as the variations in pH it brings about are far too large. Swings in the pH that occur rapidly are not good at all and need to be avoided. They create stress and we all know that stress is something we need to avoid at all cost.
Note that since I have sold TAT several months ago, I have no interest in the matter and do not get paid a bonus or royalty whether Alan sells more or less vitamin C. TAT is now owned by TAD Reef Enterprises Inc. (Tx).
He is copied in this message too.
Anyone who has a further interest in Vitamin C and wishes to read up on all its beneficial properties, as defined by Linus Pauling, should refer to his texts.
Amongst others (Thanks, David): enhance the immune system response, protection against infection, possibly potentiate wound healing. Even though these are characteristics ascribed to the use of Vitamin C in humans, they are very much what we are trying to accomplish with them in aquariums as well. Hence my recommendations for its use, as described in the much longer article on Vitamin C on our web site in the SW Libary and also accessible directly from the main index page.
Should you have any other questions regarding C, feel free to ask. I noticed that you posted a whole series of questions for me on the reef keeping list and I will get around to answering them. I have so much mail that it is just going to take a little longer than usual.
Albert
Thanks for your reply Albert.
Just an interesting follow up - from what I understand the amount of Vit C made from rose hips is very small. It is more of a marketing hype. I believe most Vit. C is made from corn. If one were to make Vit. C from rose hips only, it would not only be prohibitively expensive, but would probably require many more roses than all of the reef keeping men have given to their spouses in a lifetime (just an analogy to stir it up a little)!
I don't know much about fish physiology, but am always interested in the comparisons between fish and humans in terms of medication, treatment etc.
In medicine we have a saying that I think applies to fish very well - In Latin "primum non nocere" which means "first do no harm". I think we can all learn from this statement by reading your articles, reef keeping messages, books, etc.
David :
Yes that is correct based on the knowledge I have acquired about Vit. C manufacturing because of my dealings with several companies.
They were most reluctant to even change anything and wanted huge numbers ordered before they would even consider changing anything. Eventually I did find a company that did though.
You are correct also about the amount of bioflavenoids in the C tablets. If the amounts were high the cost would indeed jump by 10 fold or more. Nevertheless some are included especially the two mentioned: Acerola and Rose Hips extracts.
I think also that you are right about the fact that most C is now made from Corn, and there is one company that has just about the monopoly on that market (AMD is the name if I remember correctly).
Agreed also on "first do not harm" principle. That is one of the reasons that it is much safer to use Aquarium Vit. C, rather than a generic or brand name one made for human consumption.
The database of our message lists, which can be searched from our web site includes many testimonials from people who have used it and have reported excellent results and the healing of many fish. They report having avoided parasite outbreaks, having cured them, having cured Black Spot disease, Hole in the Head and Lateral line disease and so on. The positive results are far greater than one imagines.
Note also that feeding is enhanced and that coloration is ameliorated, the colors being more vivid in both fishes and corals.
Albert